I have noticed how outspoken his family has been against him. It really sounds vicious on the family's side. Also, I don't see a mix of opinion in his family outside of his own. It seems to be very trendy for liberals to be openly vicious as a form of virtue signaling. But, you know, what should I expect from people that support the establishment?
If principles were truly involved, you would also expect to see them condemn the Democratic Party when it did things that are outside of their stated values. Standing by your corrupted party while you lead the stone-throwing against family is Mao’s value system, not JFK/RFK’s.
These people disgust me. Caroline Kennedy’s dingbat son has been dissing Kennedy on social media for months—his mother works for Biden. He should probably point that out. There is something really loathsome about this spectacle. It would be one thing to say we don’t agree with him, but the vitriol and lack of familial goodwill is disturbing.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.“
I keep thinking of this. Not just pointing fingers - I’m part of a generation that could coast a bit on the accomplishments of those before me. And coasting did nothing (good) for my character. Unhealed trauma and relative ease can be a dangerous combination I think.
It’s sad. All of it. The Kennedy 5 are trotted out onto mainstream media to disparage their own. When else do you even see these people? It feels as much humiliation ritual for them as negative press for Bobby. Except Jack S. He seems to do it gleefully. Like Kamala. Like the hyenas in the Lion King.
"When else do you even see these people?" Here are the most notable places:
Courtney Kennedy For over thirty years, she has worked on diverse human rights issues such as children's rights, child labor, disappearances, indigenous land rights, judicial independence, freedom of expression, ethnic violence, impunity, and the environment. She has concentrated specifically on women's rights, particularly honor killings, sexual slavery, domestic violence, workplace discrimination, and sexual assault. She has worked in over 60 countries and led hundreds of human rights delegations.[9]Kennedy established the RFK Center Partners for Human Rights in 1986 to ensure the protection of rights codified under the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights. RFK Partners provides support to human rights defenders around the world. The Center uncovers human rights abuses such as torture, repression of free speech and child labor; urges Congress and the U.S. administration to highlight human rights in foreign policy; and supplies activists with the resources they need to advance their work. Kennedy also founded RFK Compass, which works on sustainable investing with leaders in the financial community. She started the RFK Training Institute in Florence, Italy, which offers courses of study to leading human rights defenders across the globe.[9]Kennedy is Chair of the Amnesty International USA Leadership Council. Nominated by President George W. Bush and confirmed by the U.S. Senate, she is on the board of directors of the United States Institute of Peace,[11] as well as Human Rights First, and Inter Press Service in Rome, Italy. She is a patron of the Bloody Sunday Trust (Northern Ireland) and serves on the Editorial Board of Advisors of the Buffalo Human Rights Law Review. She is on the Advisory Committee for the International Campaign for Tibet, the Committee on the Administration of Justice of Northern Ireland, the Global Youth Action Network, Studies without Borders and several other organizations. She serves on the leadership council of the Amnesty International Campaign to Stop Violence Against Women and on the Advisory Board of the Albert Schweitzer Institute and the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center's National Advisory Council.[9] Kathleen Kennedy Townsend (first female) lieutenant governor of Maryland 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Kennedy_Townsend
I understand she has an extensive resume (that likely means something very different to you than it does to me after deeper explorations of many of these NGOs). But how often do you see any of the Kennedy 5 on the news outside of viral videos of them denouncing one family member with a dissenting voice?
but why should a person attempt to be in public unless /until they have something they feel the public should hear? (and as far as the NGOs, I know there are very very gray areas in most attempts to do something good! Im glad to see the efforts, and hope to see learning in others as well as myself when they/I need to re calibrate my compass. )
"And it’s certainly not behavior that’s limited to this family. The division is everywhere and character assassination seems to be a popular way of expressing differences." Is this an example :"like the hyenas in the LIon KIng"? For all of us, seems .like the more we realize that us changing is first step, the faster change comes.
Thanks for the excellent compilation. I have to admit that I never heard of Bradley Whitford. His post would be merely amusing if it didn't reflect the deep arrogance and intense hatred of progressives.
I'm waiting to see if Larry David defends his close friend Cheryl. I suspect he will sit it out and reveal his real character is not too far from his Curb persona.
All of this is difficult to witness. Grateful that I have your posts to help me root into something deeper as I’m navigating the unveiling of some ugly things.
Thank you so much for this piece. I especially appreciated the CBS footage of RFK's speech and the Q&A with the press. RFK Jr is indeed his father's son and following the path of policy over party.
I was inclined to vote for Kennedy, Jr until his pick for VP who was a little bit too progressive for me (I wish he'd chosen Gabbard). I had reservations concerning his support for his cousin, Michael who killed a neighbor when they were teens.
It's probably good that he dropped out based on the recent news regarding his affair. Perhaps he knew this info was being leaked and that had some bearing on his decision? He shouldn't have run in the first place, how could candidates not know this kind of information would be found out?
Some second thoughts as Ive read your post here, would welcome your thinking:- I -I Idont much like the tone of Bradley Whitford post either! . But not seeing what is has to do with Cheryl Hines 'staying in good graces of 'the party"? Whitford seems to be an actor, not someone mandating party stances Is this the RIchard M Fleming you cite?
" A federal grand jury in Nebraska returned an indictment against Fleming on January 18, 2007, charging ten counts of health care fraud and three counts of mail and wire fraud. The health care fraud counts charged Fleming with submitting bills to insurance companies in 2002 for medical procedures, diagnostic heart tests, he had not actually performed. The mail and wire fraud counts charged Fleming with obtaining payment from a North Carolina soy food company in 2004 for product testing work he had not performed, and more specifically charged him with lying about whether he had performed the services he was paid for, and with creating and submitting false documents in order to cover up the fact that he had not done the work for which he had been paid. The case actually went to trial, which began on April 6, 2009, and the jury was deliberating on their verdict when Fleming pled guilty, admitting that he had committed both health care fraud and mail fraud. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/omaha/press-releases/2009/om082009.htm Is this cheating and stealing -from us all, lets be clear - something to support? Im genuinely confused. What makes Richard Fleming an authority to heed, for you?
Along with what Ive aimed to be reasonable questions, I know that reason alone is not the core answer; we (the people) require and are calling for Heart. No one is going to be rationally argued away from Trump and RFK support any more than a toddler can be argued away from , say, wanting to spill their breakfast all over the kitchen, or bashing a sibling who is receiving more attention. (people advocating a variety of stances are in this non-rational camp! In followers of Trump and RFK it can seem extra evident sometimes, but they surely have no monopoly on it. We all are craving more Heart, more being genuinely heard, more modelling of community and can 'act out' that craving in some ways that seem to bring on the reverse)
Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion (" I dont like the way the election went? Ha! Ill throw a giant tantrum about it!" The all caps posts, so much more. ) and RFK sometimes refreshing -if disturbing in its 'dont care stance" honesty The " I have so many skeletons" quote is just one example, one I believe was in response to his own accusations of sexual assault. (It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.)
Compassion for mistakes and forgiveness matters. However. How would you think about that behavior from your husband? Your son? For me, I think I’d think that person needs care. They need to be strongly guided away from that and supported to understand why. They very much do Not need to be put into a very stressful and visible position, one where lots of dangerous leeway is given to people in power ( especially now with the SC having weighed in on presidential non culpability)-like the very person with whom RFK has chosen to ally
It can be refreshing to see sincere emotions, even when theyre destructive and petty. A toddlers sincerity is undoubtable, when , say , they want to bash a sibling who is receiving more attention. But what Im not seeing is a grownup mind and heart, who can honestly acknowledge the shadow, the anger -and lovingly choose a productive way forward. Caregiver to toddler "Youre really angry at Joey! I wont let you hurt him. All brothers and sisters get angry like that sometimes." - while, say protecting about to be bashed child and setting constructive things in place for the unlistened to one. Its abundantly evident that what TRump does is not that- he mocks people who have suffered, and does all he can to make consequences not applicable. In glad that Ive not seen RFK doing any of the mocking, but he sure does seem to consider himself exempt from most consequences. (the growing takes of animal abuse , all treated as jokes, for just one example)
There has to be questioning of 'rules' , of course. ButIm not seeing in either Trump or RFK a genuine reach for the deeper 'rules' though, the fluid felt rules of how to live on earth, rules of decency and mutual support. Do you? Examples?
One way we can access those is by awareness of the actual Earth , the rhythms. Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that. Could it be because Trump denounced him as part of the 'green new scam' a while back? Seems a possible thread of chameleon expedience running in him and in Vance. There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here?All to express contuining confusion at stance to support RFK, especially with his new stated alliances, and willingness to hear more to understand better.
Hi Anna. It feels like my post may have triggered you. There are a lot of sweeping generalizations, mischaracterizations and ad hominem assertions here that I'm guessing are a response to what you see as my biases. I won't pretend I don't have biases, but I do think you are misinterpreting them.
I will try to address your questions.
Regarding Bradley Whitford, I just think it’s bullying. Admittedly, a glimpse of his Twitter feed suggested to me that his motivation for her public shaming was political, but maybe that’s just how he treats people he disagrees with.
Regarding Richard Fleming, my reference to his tweet is no endorsement of his character, expertise or career. I don’t look to him as an authority on anything. I’m just crediting him with an observation about a father and son and finding a very relevant piece of history to reflect on. Did you watch the video of RFK’s speech? Did you watch RFK Jrs speech? I’d be curious to your thoughts on those.
“No one is going to be rationally argued away from Trump and RFK support any more than a toddler can be argued away from , say, wanting to spill their breakfast all over the kitchen, or bashing a sibling who is receiving more attention.” Are you comparing Trump and RFK supporters to toddlers? Or suggesting that if people were rational they would cease to support them? If so, please present the rational arguments. But first you might want to explore why their supporters support them instead of assuming there are no logical and rational reasons.
“Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion” … as opposed to the party of Joy? I don’t think we should pretend that the entire election is not rife with emotional appeals. What do you think of their policy positions?
I do agree we’re all craving more Heart and being genuinely heard. (Thus the emotional appeals)
“It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.” That statement, of course, was vile (and elicits a lot of emotion). Are you willing to look at the vile behavior of whatever candidate you plan to vote for? There is a LOT to unpack there and I think each of us must be willing to look at ALL the inconvenient truths, distinguish them from media assertions and consider whether someone has evolved and learned from mistakes… lives their values, etc. That’s not an easy task as the medial regularly obscures the truth. But if you’re genuinely interested in why someone considers the candidate they choose, be curious and ask. Everyone has their own process and perspective.
I’m not a Trump fan, but respectful conversations have gone a long way towards breaking down some of my previous misconceptions. And there were many. I'm also able to see ideas that have merit and efforts that deserve recognition. I think many your arguments/assertions make clear that you haven’t examined your own beliefs with the same scrutiny you apply to others.
“Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that” Definitely how? I only see him rejecting a climate change narrative that has been corrupted by corporate interests. You can read about Kennedy’s position on environmental issues here. https://www.kennedy24.com/environment.
“There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here.” This is unrelated to this post, but please feel free to bring in a comparison of their records.
“There has to be questioning of 'rules' , of course. ButIm not seeing in either Trump or RFK a genuine reach for the deeper 'rules' though, the fluid felt rules of how to live on earth, rules of decency and mutual support. Do you? Examples” My post is about how people model their own values. I'm not sure how this fits in. But, with regards to rules, I do take issue with the DNC installing a candidate that no one voted for as well as the use of lawfare to prevent Americans from voting for the candidate of their choice. What rules are you referring to?
Admittedly, I'm having trouble following your comments, but I tried to address them. Perhaps our exchange is yet another reflection of the Babylon we're in. Hopefully we all find our way back to understanding each other soon.
"Hi Anna. It feels like my post may have triggered you. There are a lot of sweeping generalizations, mischaracterizations and ad hominem assertions " here that I'm guessing are a response to what you see as my biases." *Im open to you detailing them, here or in private!"
google says; " In psychology, "triggered" refers to a strong emotional or psychological reaction to a stimulus that can cause someone to relive a traumatic event or mental health condition." What to you defines difference between questioning/differing from and being triggered?
"I won't pretend I don't have biases, but I do think you are misinterpreting them".
Thats why I wrote, so as to understand better."
Regarding Bradley Whitford, I just think it’s bullying. Admittedly, a glimpse of his Twitter feed suggested to me that his motivation for her public shaming was political, but maybe that’s just how he treats people he disagrees with."
But you cited him! "
And apparently, some feel that RFKJr’s wife must also denounce him to remain in the good graces of The Party…" Were you saying you thought that to be true? "
Chairman Mao would be delighted by all of this." doesnt come across to me as non involved reporting. I know the internet and written communication can be complicated, but as thats what we're dealing with, Im asking into yours. Im having a second thought about it.
"Regarding Richard Fleming, my reference to his tweet is no endorsement of his character, expertise or career.
'"Dr. Richard Fleming offers some additional insight on the Kennedy legacy" -Is describing his comments as 'insight" not an endorsement?"
I don’t look to him as an authority on anything. I’m just crediting him with an observation about a father and son and finding a very relevant piece of history to reflect on. Did you watch the video of RFK’s speech? Did you watch RFK Jrs speech? I’d be curious to your thoughts on those."
I appreciated seeing the news reporting about Bobby Kennedy;s run for president and how it was received, interesting and valuable reminder to try staying attuned to the long arc of time. RFK" s speech Ive only skimmed so far. Truthfully, my first response is about his voice,.Wonder how you discern that through lens of chinese medicine? Like you and most people at this point I think, Im wary of 'speeches' in general (I was not an oo-er and aah-er with the DNC)-its what people do and say their plans are that Im trying to attend to most
." Are you comparing Trump and RFK supporters to toddlers? "
Did you read what I wrote? ("people advocating a variety of stances are in this non-rational camp! In followers of Trump and RFK it can seem extra evident sometimes, but they surely have no monopoly on it" .
I think we all have kind of toddler like aspects when it comes to politics. And, as I indicated, I support heeding that. The toddler 'acting out" is acting out of real experience that needs to be acknowledged..
"Or suggesting that if people were rational they would cease to support them? If so, please present the rational arguments. But first you might want to explore why their supporters support them instead of assuming there are no logical and rational reasons." Agreed Thats why Im here, reading what youve said and asking into it
“Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion” … as opposed to the party of Joy? I don’t think we should pretend that the entire election is not rife with emotional appeals. What do you think of their policy positions?
Yes, agreed about emotional appreals (and I dont scorn them). thus my not going deep into political speeches! Trump's policy positions have frequently shifted so its hard to assess, but he does seem to have been consistent with environment, and I have concerns about what he's espoused: From an NBC compare/contrast " Trump wants to cut regulations and withdraw from the major international climate treaty. He withdrew from the Paris Agreement in the early months of his administration, and as president, he relaxed a slew of environmental regulations, including emission and pollution rules for coal-fired power plants, arguing the rules were stifling job creation. If elected, Trump has promised to “drill, baby, drill” for fossil fuels, “remove all red tape” around oil and natural gas projects, withdraw from the Paris accord again, and “oppose all of the radical left’s Green New Deal policies that are designed to shut down the development of America’s abundant energy resources.”
I do agree we’re all craving more Heart and being genuinely heard. (Thus the emotional appeals)“
It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.” That statement, of course, was vile (and elicits a lot of emotion -are you describing emotional reaction as a critique/ genuine question).
"Are you willing to look at the vile behavior of whatever candidate you plan to vote for? There is a LOT to unpack there and I think each of us must be willing to look at ALL the inconvenient truths, distinguish them from media assertions and consider whether someone has evolved and learned from mistakes… lives their values, etc. That’s not an easy task as the medial regularly obscures the truth. But if you’re genuinely interested in why someone considers the candidate they choose, be curious and ask. Everyone has their own process and perspective."
What Im doing here, asking into why the choice for TRump/RFK! ( I will say, I havent heard the same in response so far) And I agree - and said, if you read - that we all make mistakes , that compassion is always indicated and that learning from mistakes matters most. Do you see Trump, with whom RFK as allied , as as having learned from his? Id love to learn this was so.
“Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that” Definitely how? I only see him rejecting a climate change narrative that has been corrupted by corporate interests. You can read about Kennedy’s position on environmental issues here. https://www.kennedy24.com/environment."
I tried to follow the link above, got 'page unavailable" Id welcome seeing more.“
There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here.” This is unrelated to this post (?), but please feel free to bring in a comparison of their records.
You too!As maybe youve found, its hard to find info not behind paywalls (that too a symptom, maybe wed agree?)Here's some " https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-biden-administration-has-taken-more-climate-action-than-any-other-in-history/"and " The Trump administration has been particularly focused on rolling back actions intended to deal with climate change. On June 1, 2017, President Trump promised to withdraw from the Paris Agreement, an agreement among 195 nations to cut their greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. The United States stands alone among major emitters in the world in its efforts to repudiate the agreement and cannot officially withdraw until the day after the 2020 election in November." Brookings Inst "My post is about how people model their own values. "
I wasnt familiar with the term 'lawfare" so I looked it up ." Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to damage or delegitimize an opponent, or to deter an individual's usage of their legal rights." Was this not what happened Jan 6?
And, Im with you about the deep importance of seeing how people model their values. If Trump is modelling his values, I choose away from them, RFK has chosen for, Thus my confusion and attempt at exploration here."
Admittedly, I'm having trouble following your comments, but I tried to address them. Perhaps our exchange is yet another reflection of the Babylon we're in. Hopefully we all find our way back to understanding each other soon."
Ditto here- hard to follow, and looking forward to some kind of actual understanding. If Im understanding your 'babylon' reference aright, Id agree that we're all in some kind of cultural weird moment. Id say, up to us to try to shift that. Id be willing to try a private correspondence where we each send one another only -for just that once -all the places we see that we might agree, with hope that that might open up understanding of the places we do not.
I don't think a private correspondence is the best use of our time, but I will try to be clearer.
No, I don't think citing someone or acknowledging someone can offer an insight is not and endorsement.
No, my commentary is not objective. I am supportive of much of Robert F. Kennedy's work. I started the NJ chapter of Children's Health Defense, which he founded and am grateful to the ways he has shown up for me an others advocating alongside me.
No I don't think January 6 is an example of lawfare.
I don't think this exchange is going to be very fruitful, so I'm not interested in pursing it in a private exchange, but it's ok that we disagree even if it's a little sad that we can't quite understand each other. All of America is going through this. Trying to navigate the terrain respectfully is a start. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Be well.
Yes, I was not sure about private correspondence either -just feeling the awkwardness of quote and reply, for clarity.. I hear you that citing is not an endorsement. I cant but see it however , in the giving it space and audience, as a valuing of it "this is worth reading "unless it comes with more comment to context. Did I ask if your commentary was objective? I dont think anyone's is! I just hoped to understand your perspective more. I believe Im also hearing you that you dont want to continue. If you find Ive been disrespectful I *would *like to hear where and how, though, as I agree that is a needed starting place and I work towards it. With some sadness at the halt. along with recognition that things havent progressed much - Ill send good wishes to you, and all of us.
I have noticed how outspoken his family has been against him. It really sounds vicious on the family's side. Also, I don't see a mix of opinion in his family outside of his own. It seems to be very trendy for liberals to be openly vicious as a form of virtue signaling. But, you know, what should I expect from people that support the establishment?
If principles were truly involved, you would also expect to see them condemn the Democratic Party when it did things that are outside of their stated values. Standing by your corrupted party while you lead the stone-throwing against family is Mao’s value system, not JFK/RFK’s.
These people disgust me. Caroline Kennedy’s dingbat son has been dissing Kennedy on social media for months—his mother works for Biden. He should probably point that out. There is something really loathsome about this spectacle. It would be one thing to say we don’t agree with him, but the vitriol and lack of familial goodwill is disturbing.
“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.“
I keep thinking of this. Not just pointing fingers - I’m part of a generation that could coast a bit on the accomplishments of those before me. And coasting did nothing (good) for my character. Unhealed trauma and relative ease can be a dangerous combination I think.
It’s sad. All of it. The Kennedy 5 are trotted out onto mainstream media to disparage their own. When else do you even see these people? It feels as much humiliation ritual for them as negative press for Bobby. Except Jack S. He seems to do it gleefully. Like Kamala. Like the hyenas in the Lion King.
"When else do you even see these people?" Here are the most notable places:
Courtney Kennedy For over thirty years, she has worked on diverse human rights issues such as children's rights, child labor, disappearances, indigenous land rights, judicial independence, freedom of expression, ethnic violence, impunity, and the environment. She has concentrated specifically on women's rights, particularly honor killings, sexual slavery, domestic violence, workplace discrimination, and sexual assault. She has worked in over 60 countries and led hundreds of human rights delegations.[9]Kennedy established the RFK Center Partners for Human Rights in 1986 to ensure the protection of rights codified under the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights. RFK Partners provides support to human rights defenders around the world. The Center uncovers human rights abuses such as torture, repression of free speech and child labor; urges Congress and the U.S. administration to highlight human rights in foreign policy; and supplies activists with the resources they need to advance their work. Kennedy also founded RFK Compass, which works on sustainable investing with leaders in the financial community. She started the RFK Training Institute in Florence, Italy, which offers courses of study to leading human rights defenders across the globe.[9]Kennedy is Chair of the Amnesty International USA Leadership Council. Nominated by President George W. Bush and confirmed by the U.S. Senate, she is on the board of directors of the United States Institute of Peace,[11] as well as Human Rights First, and Inter Press Service in Rome, Italy. She is a patron of the Bloody Sunday Trust (Northern Ireland) and serves on the Editorial Board of Advisors of the Buffalo Human Rights Law Review. She is on the Advisory Committee for the International Campaign for Tibet, the Committee on the Administration of Justice of Northern Ireland, the Global Youth Action Network, Studies without Borders and several other organizations. She serves on the leadership council of the Amnesty International Campaign to Stop Violence Against Women and on the Advisory Board of the Albert Schweitzer Institute and the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center's National Advisory Council.[9] Kathleen Kennedy Townsend (first female) lieutenant governor of Maryland 2003. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Kennedy_Townsend
I understand she has an extensive resume (that likely means something very different to you than it does to me after deeper explorations of many of these NGOs). But how often do you see any of the Kennedy 5 on the news outside of viral videos of them denouncing one family member with a dissenting voice?
but why should a person attempt to be in public unless /until they have something they feel the public should hear? (and as far as the NGOs, I know there are very very gray areas in most attempts to do something good! Im glad to see the efforts, and hope to see learning in others as well as myself when they/I need to re calibrate my compass. )
"And it’s certainly not behavior that’s limited to this family. The division is everywhere and character assassination seems to be a popular way of expressing differences." Is this an example :"like the hyenas in the LIon KIng"? For all of us, seems .like the more we realize that us changing is first step, the faster change comes.
Point taken.
A very much needed perspective
Thanks, Colin!
Thanks for the excellent compilation. I have to admit that I never heard of Bradley Whitford. His post would be merely amusing if it didn't reflect the deep arrogance and intense hatred of progressives.
I'm waiting to see if Larry David defends his close friend Cheryl. I suspect he will sit it out and reveal his real character is not too far from his Curb persona.
Thank you, Barry.
All of this is difficult to witness. Grateful that I have your posts to help me root into something deeper as I’m navigating the unveiling of some ugly things.
Thank you so much for this piece. I especially appreciated the CBS footage of RFK's speech and the Q&A with the press. RFK Jr is indeed his father's son and following the path of policy over party.
Thank you, Elizabeth. I’m grateful that Dr. Fleming posted that press conference, too!
I have chills watching this. https://x.com/NicoleShanahan/status/1829972000150077754
I was inclined to vote for Kennedy, Jr until his pick for VP who was a little bit too progressive for me (I wish he'd chosen Gabbard). I had reservations concerning his support for his cousin, Michael who killed a neighbor when they were teens.
It's probably good that he dropped out based on the recent news regarding his affair. Perhaps he knew this info was being leaked and that had some bearing on his decision? He shouldn't have run in the first place, how could candidates not know this kind of information would be found out?
Some second thoughts as Ive read your post here, would welcome your thinking:- I -I Idont much like the tone of Bradley Whitford post either! . But not seeing what is has to do with Cheryl Hines 'staying in good graces of 'the party"? Whitford seems to be an actor, not someone mandating party stances Is this the RIchard M Fleming you cite?
" A federal grand jury in Nebraska returned an indictment against Fleming on January 18, 2007, charging ten counts of health care fraud and three counts of mail and wire fraud. The health care fraud counts charged Fleming with submitting bills to insurance companies in 2002 for medical procedures, diagnostic heart tests, he had not actually performed. The mail and wire fraud counts charged Fleming with obtaining payment from a North Carolina soy food company in 2004 for product testing work he had not performed, and more specifically charged him with lying about whether he had performed the services he was paid for, and with creating and submitting false documents in order to cover up the fact that he had not done the work for which he had been paid. The case actually went to trial, which began on April 6, 2009, and the jury was deliberating on their verdict when Fleming pled guilty, admitting that he had committed both health care fraud and mail fraud. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/omaha/press-releases/2009/om082009.htm Is this cheating and stealing -from us all, lets be clear - something to support? Im genuinely confused. What makes Richard Fleming an authority to heed, for you?
Along with what Ive aimed to be reasonable questions, I know that reason alone is not the core answer; we (the people) require and are calling for Heart. No one is going to be rationally argued away from Trump and RFK support any more than a toddler can be argued away from , say, wanting to spill their breakfast all over the kitchen, or bashing a sibling who is receiving more attention. (people advocating a variety of stances are in this non-rational camp! In followers of Trump and RFK it can seem extra evident sometimes, but they surely have no monopoly on it. We all are craving more Heart, more being genuinely heard, more modelling of community and can 'act out' that craving in some ways that seem to bring on the reverse)
Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion (" I dont like the way the election went? Ha! Ill throw a giant tantrum about it!" The all caps posts, so much more. ) and RFK sometimes refreshing -if disturbing in its 'dont care stance" honesty The " I have so many skeletons" quote is just one example, one I believe was in response to his own accusations of sexual assault. (It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.)
Compassion for mistakes and forgiveness matters. However. How would you think about that behavior from your husband? Your son? For me, I think I’d think that person needs care. They need to be strongly guided away from that and supported to understand why. They very much do Not need to be put into a very stressful and visible position, one where lots of dangerous leeway is given to people in power ( especially now with the SC having weighed in on presidential non culpability)-like the very person with whom RFK has chosen to ally
It can be refreshing to see sincere emotions, even when theyre destructive and petty. A toddlers sincerity is undoubtable, when , say , they want to bash a sibling who is receiving more attention. But what Im not seeing is a grownup mind and heart, who can honestly acknowledge the shadow, the anger -and lovingly choose a productive way forward. Caregiver to toddler "Youre really angry at Joey! I wont let you hurt him. All brothers and sisters get angry like that sometimes." - while, say protecting about to be bashed child and setting constructive things in place for the unlistened to one. Its abundantly evident that what TRump does is not that- he mocks people who have suffered, and does all he can to make consequences not applicable. In glad that Ive not seen RFK doing any of the mocking, but he sure does seem to consider himself exempt from most consequences. (the growing takes of animal abuse , all treated as jokes, for just one example)
There has to be questioning of 'rules' , of course. ButIm not seeing in either Trump or RFK a genuine reach for the deeper 'rules' though, the fluid felt rules of how to live on earth, rules of decency and mutual support. Do you? Examples?
One way we can access those is by awareness of the actual Earth , the rhythms. Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that. Could it be because Trump denounced him as part of the 'green new scam' a while back? Seems a possible thread of chameleon expedience running in him and in Vance. There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here?All to express contuining confusion at stance to support RFK, especially with his new stated alliances, and willingness to hear more to understand better.
Hi Anna. It feels like my post may have triggered you. There are a lot of sweeping generalizations, mischaracterizations and ad hominem assertions here that I'm guessing are a response to what you see as my biases. I won't pretend I don't have biases, but I do think you are misinterpreting them.
I will try to address your questions.
Regarding Bradley Whitford, I just think it’s bullying. Admittedly, a glimpse of his Twitter feed suggested to me that his motivation for her public shaming was political, but maybe that’s just how he treats people he disagrees with.
Regarding Richard Fleming, my reference to his tweet is no endorsement of his character, expertise or career. I don’t look to him as an authority on anything. I’m just crediting him with an observation about a father and son and finding a very relevant piece of history to reflect on. Did you watch the video of RFK’s speech? Did you watch RFK Jrs speech? I’d be curious to your thoughts on those.
“No one is going to be rationally argued away from Trump and RFK support any more than a toddler can be argued away from , say, wanting to spill their breakfast all over the kitchen, or bashing a sibling who is receiving more attention.” Are you comparing Trump and RFK supporters to toddlers? Or suggesting that if people were rational they would cease to support them? If so, please present the rational arguments. But first you might want to explore why their supporters support them instead of assuming there are no logical and rational reasons.
“Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion” … as opposed to the party of Joy? I don’t think we should pretend that the entire election is not rife with emotional appeals. What do you think of their policy positions?
I do agree we’re all craving more Heart and being genuinely heard. (Thus the emotional appeals)
“It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.” That statement, of course, was vile (and elicits a lot of emotion). Are you willing to look at the vile behavior of whatever candidate you plan to vote for? There is a LOT to unpack there and I think each of us must be willing to look at ALL the inconvenient truths, distinguish them from media assertions and consider whether someone has evolved and learned from mistakes… lives their values, etc. That’s not an easy task as the medial regularly obscures the truth. But if you’re genuinely interested in why someone considers the candidate they choose, be curious and ask. Everyone has their own process and perspective.
I’m not a Trump fan, but respectful conversations have gone a long way towards breaking down some of my previous misconceptions. And there were many. I'm also able to see ideas that have merit and efforts that deserve recognition. I think many your arguments/assertions make clear that you haven’t examined your own beliefs with the same scrutiny you apply to others.
“Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that” Definitely how? I only see him rejecting a climate change narrative that has been corrupted by corporate interests. You can read about Kennedy’s position on environmental issues here. https://www.kennedy24.com/environment.
“There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here.” This is unrelated to this post, but please feel free to bring in a comparison of their records.
“There has to be questioning of 'rules' , of course. ButIm not seeing in either Trump or RFK a genuine reach for the deeper 'rules' though, the fluid felt rules of how to live on earth, rules of decency and mutual support. Do you? Examples” My post is about how people model their own values. I'm not sure how this fits in. But, with regards to rules, I do take issue with the DNC installing a candidate that no one voted for as well as the use of lawfare to prevent Americans from voting for the candidate of their choice. What rules are you referring to?
Admittedly, I'm having trouble following your comments, but I tried to address them. Perhaps our exchange is yet another reflection of the Babylon we're in. Hopefully we all find our way back to understanding each other soon.
"Hi Anna. It feels like my post may have triggered you. There are a lot of sweeping generalizations, mischaracterizations and ad hominem assertions " here that I'm guessing are a response to what you see as my biases." *Im open to you detailing them, here or in private!"
google says; " In psychology, "triggered" refers to a strong emotional or psychological reaction to a stimulus that can cause someone to relive a traumatic event or mental health condition." What to you defines difference between questioning/differing from and being triggered?
"I won't pretend I don't have biases, but I do think you are misinterpreting them".
Thats why I wrote, so as to understand better."
Regarding Bradley Whitford, I just think it’s bullying. Admittedly, a glimpse of his Twitter feed suggested to me that his motivation for her public shaming was political, but maybe that’s just how he treats people he disagrees with."
But you cited him! "
And apparently, some feel that RFKJr’s wife must also denounce him to remain in the good graces of The Party…" Were you saying you thought that to be true? "
Chairman Mao would be delighted by all of this." doesnt come across to me as non involved reporting. I know the internet and written communication can be complicated, but as thats what we're dealing with, Im asking into yours. Im having a second thought about it.
"Regarding Richard Fleming, my reference to his tweet is no endorsement of his character, expertise or career.
'"Dr. Richard Fleming offers some additional insight on the Kennedy legacy" -Is describing his comments as 'insight" not an endorsement?"
I don’t look to him as an authority on anything. I’m just crediting him with an observation about a father and son and finding a very relevant piece of history to reflect on. Did you watch the video of RFK’s speech? Did you watch RFK Jrs speech? I’d be curious to your thoughts on those."
I appreciated seeing the news reporting about Bobby Kennedy;s run for president and how it was received, interesting and valuable reminder to try staying attuned to the long arc of time. RFK" s speech Ive only skimmed so far. Truthfully, my first response is about his voice,.Wonder how you discern that through lens of chinese medicine? Like you and most people at this point I think, Im wary of 'speeches' in general (I was not an oo-er and aah-er with the DNC)-its what people do and say their plans are that Im trying to attend to most
." Are you comparing Trump and RFK supporters to toddlers? "
Did you read what I wrote? ("people advocating a variety of stances are in this non-rational camp! In followers of Trump and RFK it can seem extra evident sometimes, but they surely have no monopoly on it" .
I think we all have kind of toddler like aspects when it comes to politics. And, as I indicated, I support heeding that. The toddler 'acting out" is acting out of real experience that needs to be acknowledged..
"Or suggesting that if people were rational they would cease to support them? If so, please present the rational arguments. But first you might want to explore why their supporters support them instead of assuming there are no logical and rational reasons." Agreed Thats why Im here, reading what youve said and asking into it
“Trump and Kennedy offer, at least, unconstrained emotion” … as opposed to the party of Joy? I don’t think we should pretend that the entire election is not rife with emotional appeals. What do you think of their policy positions?
Yes, agreed about emotional appreals (and I dont scorn them). thus my not going deep into political speeches! Trump's policy positions have frequently shifted so its hard to assess, but he does seem to have been consistent with environment, and I have concerns about what he's espoused: From an NBC compare/contrast " Trump wants to cut regulations and withdraw from the major international climate treaty. He withdrew from the Paris Agreement in the early months of his administration, and as president, he relaxed a slew of environmental regulations, including emission and pollution rules for coal-fired power plants, arguing the rules were stifling job creation. If elected, Trump has promised to “drill, baby, drill” for fossil fuels, “remove all red tape” around oil and natural gas projects, withdraw from the Paris accord again, and “oppose all of the radical left’s Green New Deal policies that are designed to shut down the development of America’s abundant energy resources.”
I do agree we’re all craving more Heart and being genuinely heard. (Thus the emotional appeals)“
It does remain a puzzle to me how any woman or mother of daughters can ally with Trump, given his 'grab them by the pussy' remarks and so much more.” That statement, of course, was vile (and elicits a lot of emotion -are you describing emotional reaction as a critique/ genuine question).
"Are you willing to look at the vile behavior of whatever candidate you plan to vote for? There is a LOT to unpack there and I think each of us must be willing to look at ALL the inconvenient truths, distinguish them from media assertions and consider whether someone has evolved and learned from mistakes… lives their values, etc. That’s not an easy task as the medial regularly obscures the truth. But if you’re genuinely interested in why someone considers the candidate they choose, be curious and ask. Everyone has their own process and perspective."
What Im doing here, asking into why the choice for TRump/RFK! ( I will say, I havent heard the same in response so far) And I agree - and said, if you read - that we all make mistakes , that compassion is always indicated and that learning from mistakes matters most. Do you see Trump, with whom RFK as allied , as as having learned from his? Id love to learn this was so.
“Though Kennedy had a very good stint as an environmental activist, he seems to have definitively turned his back on that” Definitely how? I only see him rejecting a climate change narrative that has been corrupted by corporate interests. You can read about Kennedy’s position on environmental issues here. https://www.kennedy24.com/environment."
I tried to follow the link above, got 'page unavailable" Id welcome seeing more.“
There are plenty of statistics on what BIden's action have done positively for our earth, waters, air, and for what TRump has done and says he'll do. I'm sure you can access them, but somehow they dont seem to weigh in here.” This is unrelated to this post (?), but please feel free to bring in a comparison of their records.
You too!As maybe youve found, its hard to find info not behind paywalls (that too a symptom, maybe wed agree?)Here's some " https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-biden-administration-has-taken-more-climate-action-than-any-other-in-history/"and " The Trump administration has been particularly focused on rolling back actions intended to deal with climate change. On June 1, 2017, President Trump promised to withdraw from the Paris Agreement, an agreement among 195 nations to cut their greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions to avoid the worst impacts of climate change. The United States stands alone among major emitters in the world in its efforts to repudiate the agreement and cannot officially withdraw until the day after the 2020 election in November." Brookings Inst "My post is about how people model their own values. "
I wasnt familiar with the term 'lawfare" so I looked it up ." Lawfare is the use of legal systems and institutions to damage or delegitimize an opponent, or to deter an individual's usage of their legal rights." Was this not what happened Jan 6?
And, Im with you about the deep importance of seeing how people model their values. If Trump is modelling his values, I choose away from them, RFK has chosen for, Thus my confusion and attempt at exploration here."
Admittedly, I'm having trouble following your comments, but I tried to address them. Perhaps our exchange is yet another reflection of the Babylon we're in. Hopefully we all find our way back to understanding each other soon."
Ditto here- hard to follow, and looking forward to some kind of actual understanding. If Im understanding your 'babylon' reference aright, Id agree that we're all in some kind of cultural weird moment. Id say, up to us to try to shift that. Id be willing to try a private correspondence where we each send one another only -for just that once -all the places we see that we might agree, with hope that that might open up understanding of the places we do not.
I don't think a private correspondence is the best use of our time, but I will try to be clearer.
No, I don't think citing someone or acknowledging someone can offer an insight is not and endorsement.
No, my commentary is not objective. I am supportive of much of Robert F. Kennedy's work. I started the NJ chapter of Children's Health Defense, which he founded and am grateful to the ways he has shown up for me an others advocating alongside me.
No I don't think January 6 is an example of lawfare.
I don't think this exchange is going to be very fruitful, so I'm not interested in pursing it in a private exchange, but it's ok that we disagree even if it's a little sad that we can't quite understand each other. All of America is going through this. Trying to navigate the terrain respectfully is a start. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Be well.
Yes, I was not sure about private correspondence either -just feeling the awkwardness of quote and reply, for clarity.. I hear you that citing is not an endorsement. I cant but see it however , in the giving it space and audience, as a valuing of it "this is worth reading "unless it comes with more comment to context. Did I ask if your commentary was objective? I dont think anyone's is! I just hoped to understand your perspective more. I believe Im also hearing you that you dont want to continue. If you find Ive been disrespectful I *would *like to hear where and how, though, as I agree that is a needed starting place and I work towards it. With some sadness at the halt. along with recognition that things havent progressed much - Ill send good wishes to you, and all of us.